Jun 19 2007
What I Believe – and Don’t
Hi, my name is Steve and I’m a recovering fundamentalist. Here’s what I believe:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Everything else is just fluff.
I Also Believe That…
- The earth is very old
- There are Christian believers not in my denomination who are saved. (Heresy, I know…)
- The most important point in the Genesis creation account is Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.) All the rest is amplification on that point, not a blueprint for how to build a planet.
- Israel has a right to exist and to defend herself, preemptively, if necessary
- Parents have a duty to train and discipline their kids
- Smaller government and lower taxes benefits everyone
- Parents can do a better job raising kids than the government or any school system
I Don’t Believe That…
- All dogs (or people) go to heaven
- All paths get you to heaven
- Man-induced global warming is happening
- The earth is only 6000 years old
- God is a republican or a democrat
- Christian leaders should advocate political candidates
- God would never send anyone to hell
- Jesus was just a good man
The Jury is Still Out On…
- When Christ will return
July 31st, 2007 09:41 am
Heck, Steve. How can God send anyone to hell? There ain’t any evidence (Biblical or otherwise) for it.
July 31st, 2007 10:12 am
What do you do with all the references to God’s judgment? The sheep and the goats? Why would God bother giving us free will if there were no consequences for making wrong choices? Why bother with Creation at all if everyone gets to go to heaven?
Christ spoke of it too often for me to think that it is strictly an allegorical notion.
I don’t know what ‘hell’ would be if not a place of torment for those who reject God. The Catholic notion of purgatory is not much better as it’s just an ‘easy hell’ that you can work your way out of.
September 9th, 2007 17:56 pm
I don’t believe it says in scripture God sends us to hell… it does say ” you condemn yoursleves”; therefore we choose hell… we love hell… we are the children of satan, because we do the works of our father (satan).
God too says: depart from Me, for I knew you not.
oh He knew you and your choice, but there was no relationship built upon Him and being obedient… so why wouldn’t He say: depart from Me. Well if we depart from Him, then there is only one other place I can see us going.
You can only be one of two spirits… The Holy Ghost or the Angel of Light; to which also is known as the father of lies.
This site is pretty interesting… think I will add you to my bookmarks.
September 9th, 2007 19:27 pm
Gosh, don’t know how I missed replying to you back in July, Steve.
Well, since Jesus is speaking metaphorically when he refers to us as sheep and goats, might not he be speaking metaphorically when he alludes to punishment. After all, we won’t really be thrown into the garbage pit called Gehenna.
There is some adulteration of scripture as regards to how we have translated Sheol and Gehenna. Enough to make me question the doctrine of hell and then when looked at through the lens of the Gospel, well….
So, oxysmoron, where is that one other place you see the departed as going?
September 9th, 2007 20:20 pm
Christian,
Well, since Jesus is speaking metaphorically when he refers to us as sheep and goats, might not he be speaking metaphorically when he alludes to punishment.
I know he’s not literally calling us sheep and goats, but it’s pretty clear he’s making a distinction based on some criteria. Given the context, it seems to be those who accept him (sheep) and reject him (goats). Speaking to the goats, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Hmmm, more eternal fire going on here…
Or is “eternal fire’ a metaphorical/allegorical temporary period of self-imposed uncomfortableness?
September 9th, 2007 20:56 pm
You know, we could go ’round and ’round on this until we both drop exhausted.
Whether or not there is a hell, the point of this scripture (one of mny favorites) is not about where we go when punished but on what true service to God is all about. All those smug ‘goats’ thought they had it right but didn’t and the humble sheep, well they were sort of surprised when Jesus applauded them.
I don’t think Jesus told this ‘parable’ to illustrate a doctrine about hell. Too many people have missed the big picture because they fixate on the supporting details.(Present company excepted, Steve)
October 25th, 2007 14:06 pm
I like this blog entry and in fact I like your blog period. Lots of common sense initiatives…
I believe…
that I will be back for more!
Hugs,
Roby
December 16th, 2007 17:27 pm
catholic, huh? well, you lost me.
December 17th, 2007 09:51 am
That’s ‘catholic’ meaning ‘universal,’ as opposed to Roman Catholic.
January 29th, 2008 15:33 pm
I like your last comment Steve.
I see people too often get caught up on the term catholic, and think it is the same as Catholic.
The word just means “universal.”
From a young earther…
Greg
January 30th, 2008 06:30 am
As a Catholic.. you are an idolater, yes?
Why do you pray to so many gods? (You may not call them gods… but you seek after their blessings as if they are gods… this is part of the PAGAN ROMAN religion.)
Wouldn’t you want to know The True Jesus?
You won’t find Him in Catholicism
January 30th, 2008 06:37 am
+:
Wow, where did that come from? You’re obviously hung up on the word ‘catholic’ in the Nicene Creed – a creed that is generally accepted by most Protestants as well as Roman Catholics. No, I’m not an RC. Catholic church, as used in this prayer, means ‘universal church’. I know many Roman Catholics who have a deep and abiding relationship with Jesus Christ. I would certainly consider them to be ’saved’. I also know many Protestants who have no more than a surface religion.
Please check your biases at the door. Thanks for playing.
May 30th, 2008 09:13 am
A couple of questions regarding the age of the earth (I’m still debating how to interpret the creation account in Genesis):
Was Adam the first actual man? If not, then who sinned first? There are huge theological implications if the picture of Adam being our physical “Head” is not correct.
If man evolved, then how did anyone/anything die before Adam? The Bible says that “by sin, death entered into the world.” If man sinned as he was evolving, then at what point did it become volitional sin and not just animalistic instinct. Again, if death entered by sin, then nothing could have died until someone actually sinned.
May 30th, 2008 09:32 am
TMAC:
I think Adam was the first actual, homo sapien man. I hold to an old earth view and it makes sense to me that Adam (and Eve) were created somewhere between 35-75,000 years ago. Some folks will go as high as 100,000 years ago, but I don’t see it. There were hominids prior to Adam (cro-magnon, etc), but none of them had the spirit of God in them, and none walked with God as Adam did. They were all separate, distinct species which were created and died out, just like the dinosaurs. No evolution involved.
As for the sin and death issue, sin and human death entered the world with Adam’s fall. All the other creatures were animals and were therefore unable to sin. They experienced death, but not the sin-death caused by Adam. Bottom line – I don’t have a problem with creatures or plants dying before Adam. Make sense?
May 30th, 2008 10:12 am
I understand your point, but to me, the whole idea of death (of any kind) could have never taken place (as I understand the Bible) when the Bible tells us that God called His creation (Plants, animals, etc…) “Good.” I’m not as adamant about this as I am that Jesus is God or that the resurrection was an actual event, but I guess I’m just trying to critically think aloud through the process with a little more willingness to “err” on the side of [Biblically literal] caution. I want to be able to have a well-thought out and reasoned reponse to anyone who may want to know (including my three kids, who often ask lots of questions). Anyway…
May 30th, 2008 10:40 am
TMAC:
In my mind, “the Law of Sin and Death” is tied to man, and doesn’t apply to animals or plants, because they can’t sin. When Scripture uses the phrase ‘it is good’ to refer to creation, it does not imply perfect or complete (or deathless), but good, as in good for man.
I’m not hard over on the mechanics of creation, because we weren’t there. Whether we take a literal 6×24 view or a longer view is not a key point of salvation. The key points to take away from the creation account are that:
1) God created everything
2) ex nihilo (out of nothing)
3) for us,
4) that man sinned, and
5) that sin made necessary Christ’s sacrificial death for us.
May 30th, 2008 13:19 pm
God said it was “good” long before man came on the scene (especially if you believe that plants and such were created eons before Adam) and everything (including man( is created for His glory so I’d be much more inclined to say that the “good” was “good for God’s glory.”
I’m in total agreement that the mechanics do not effect salvation. I also probably agree with all five points… but that’s just the Calvanist in me
May 31st, 2008 10:49 am
Why give careful thought to your ways? What does it accomplish if your careful thought leads you to camp on 35k or 75k earth age, or someone else 100k or someone else 6-10k? Or…someone else…millions and millions of years? If we’ve all thought carefully…so what? Is everything ok…is everyone right?
What reason do you give for “give careful thought to your ways?”
TimWs last blog post..they say You don’t exist, God?
June 1st, 2008 15:11 pm
TimW:
What’s the issue? You have a problem with reasoned thought? Or you have a problem with an interpretation of Scripture and the natural record? My personal belief is that God created the earth six billion years ago. Someone can take careful thought and come to a young earth solution or to an old earth solution. God alone knows, but that doesn’t prevent us from looking at the issue.
And I give ‘careful thought to my ways’ because that’s what God tells us to do.
June 6th, 2008 15:45 pm
To what end are we to give careful thought to our ways?
I’m just asking the question that came to mind as I gave thought to your interpretation. Careful thought includes careful study especially with respect to ‘the natural record’. Personal belief is fine, but can it be substantiated?
Haggai 1:7 says ‘Consider your ways’…but really it says ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: Consider your ways.’ Why? ‘that I may take pleasure in it and that I may be glorified, says the LORD.’
Whatever you do…’whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God’ That would include expressing our personal beliefs. Is what I believe true? Then I can boast in the LORD of hosts and He gets the glory. If it isn’t true and just my ‘personal beliefs’…then its just man’s foolishness and it leads us away from the Creator King.
Reasoned thought is important; the apostle Paul reasoned with those in the synagogue often. Some understood and believed, others not. Imposing man’s collection of data (and understanding of that data) on the biblical record and detemining what God said from the starting point of man’s understanding is sort of foolish wouldn’t you agree. If God made the world and everything in it…shouldn’t we start with the Creator and bring our understanding of the natural record into submission to the Creator?
just some careful thoughts… Blessings.
TimWs last blog post..here’s a way to show LOVE in any language
June 6th, 2008 21:51 pm
TimW:
No argument here.
You say, Imposing man’s collection of data (and understanding of that data) on the biblical record and determining what God said from the starting point of man’s understanding is sort of foolish wouldn’t you agree. If God made the world and everything in it…shouldn’t we start with the Creator and bring our understanding of the natural record into submission to the Creator?
‘Imposing our collection of data’ is another way of saying ‘our interpretation based on study’ of Scripture. It’s what theologians and Christians seeking to understand the Word have done down through the centuries. We interpret Scripture – or natural revelation – based on what we know of God and what we observe. I don’t have a problem with that. And, yes, we need to bring all things into submission to the Creator.
God gave us the ability to think and reason, about who we are, who He is, what creation is, and how it all comes together. Personally, I don’t have a problem if someone does that and decides the earth is 6000 years old, or if they do it and decide it’s 6 billion years old. God alone knows, and that particular question is not relevant to salvation, so I tend to give folks the grace to come to their own conclusions.
September 2nd, 2008 16:01 pm
I really enjoyed reading what you believe. I too align with you 100% on the face of them. I also appreciate that your Christian values seem to be more important than your party. I have met so many of both parties who seem to forget Jesus is “supposed” to be Lord of their Lives when it comes time to vote. The name-calling, the finger-pointing, the accusations… it’s pretty deplorable. And oh boy, how the “ambassadors” of the gospel behave… Thank you Lord for your mercy.
October 16th, 2008 10:16 am
i know this was waay long ago in the discussion ranks, but this notion of hell that people were throwing around and how its a punishment for our actions but how do you we know thats a post death thing, why cant that be a karma type thing, like we are punished in our life for our bad decisions. how can we say that either heaven or hell or post life events, because neither our discussed in the bible as such to my knowledge. the quran does i believe, but lets not generalize our heavens then, because some ancient time ago somebody interpreted it that way based on no evidence.
October 16th, 2008 10:43 am
q,
It’s a great question, and it comes down to whether or not you accept what Scripture says. Heaven and hell are mentioned extensively in the bible. The passage that comes to mind says that “it’s appointed for man once to die, and then to receive judgment.”
I guess I would take exception to the idea that hell is punishment for our actions. It is a punishment, but it’s punishment for one action – rejection of God. We bear the consequences for our sins, both in this life and afterward. The evangelical view is that all sin, no matter how tiny or seemingly insignificant, is worthy of eternal punishment. I’m not sure I buy that anymore. God is faithful to forgive, as long as we turn from that sin. Ongoing, willful sin in our life is a symptom of our rejection of God, and that is what condemns us.
October 22nd, 2008 05:19 am
I like it how you claim you’re a Christian, yet support a racist apartheid State like Israel, who’s army uses Palestinian children as shields, which is illegal. They illegally force Palestinian families off their land to set up their settlements, which has already been ruled on by the UN as illegal, yet you endorse a Jewish State? There are so many more things wrong, but you really need to dig deeper.
This whole war on Islam is a fake created by the bankers, who for the most part, are “Jewish”. It’s just America fighting proxy wars for Israel. It’s too easy for them when they have Zionists who hold dual citizenship for Israel and America (conflict of interest anyone?) and are in key positions of power throughout the country. ie Michael Chertoff of Homeland Security, who is responsible for the President’s safety. You think a President who doesn’t support Israel is going to be protected?
Do you even realise that the majority of the Jews who live in Israel are not originally from Israel? They are Ashkenazim Jews, who now comprise 90% of the Jews in the world. The Sephardic is the oldest group and it is they, if any, who are the Jews described in the Bible.
October 22nd, 2008 07:57 am
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you happen to be dead wrong.
November 5th, 2008 23:43 pm
just out of curiosity….what is a recovering fundamentalist?
November 6th, 2008 08:01 am
Sara,
We attended a fundamentalist church for nearly eight years. Last summer I stated my belief that the earth is more than 6000 years old. (I don’t believe in evolution and I do accept the creation account in Genesis, though in my view the six days of creation represent long ages of time. I believe the earth to be ~3.5 billion years old and the cosmos to be ~13.7 billion years.)
Anyway, the pastor told me that he didn’t think that my interpretation was consistent with a ‘biblical view of creation’ and told me ‘I was free to find a church that shared my beliefs.’
Getting the boot from that church was one of the best things that has happened to me. It forced me to reevaluate everything that I believe. I still hold to a generally evangelical interpretation of scripture, but I see that there is a difference between the truth of Scripture and someone’s interpretation of the truth of Scripture. The Bible is a message of hope and redemption, but it’s also about service to others. Many fundamentalist types miss the service bit and only focus on the ‘thou shalt not’ part of it.
Once you get past the necessity of forgiveness of sin and dealing with personal salvation, many fundamentalists stop. They haven’t discovered how to reach out to the multiply divorced couple, the drunk, the hooker, the Obama supporter (oops, sorry!), the single mom, or the homosexual because that person is different from them and distasteful. We miss abundant opportunity to show God’s love and grace because those people’s lives are messy. Christ was all about meeting people at their point of need. Many fundamentalists just can’t grasp that.
December 14th, 2008 20:57 pm
“in my view the six days of creation represent long ages of time”
Obviously you bring the secular interpretation of history to your reading of the Bible. Any Hebrew scholar can tell you that the intent of the original author was clearly meant as 6 solar earth days (yom). There are several other Hebrew words that could have been used if the intent was to convey a long period of time.
The age of the earth, as determined by man’s fallible methods, is based on unproven assumptions, so it is not proven that the earth is billions of years old.
This unproven age is being used to force an interpretation on the language of the Bible. Thus, man’s fallible theories are allowed to interpret the Bible. This ultimately undermines the use of language to communicate.
Evolutionary scientists claim the fossil layers over the earth’s surface date back hundreds of millions of years. As soon as one allows millions of years for the fossil layers, then one has accepted death, bloodshed, disease, thorns, and suffering before Adam’s sin.
Such a situation would completely undermine God’s words on day 6 of creation that everything was very good.
In Exodus 20 God wrote by his own hand in stone:
“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.”
So if each day is >hundreds of millions of years, how do you account for all the other differences in the secular interpretation vs. what the Bible CLEARLY states.>
Long-age earth interpretation (or astronomical evolutionists) claim:
Sun before earth
<
Flying insects before land insects
Claiming “yom” in Genesis means long periods of time clearly doesn’t reconcile the Bible to secular evolutionary stories. Instead it just creates more problems that don’t lend themselves to any simple solution, except to trust that God’s Word and Genesis (the account of the ONLY eyewitness to Creation) are what they claim to be, which is the foundation of everything that comes after.
December 15th, 2008 21:27 pm
Obviously you bring the secular interpretation of history to your reading of the Bible.
No, I bring a biblical world-view. You’re free to disagree with my understanding of creation, but don’t forget that it’s not a salvation issue.
So if each day is hundreds of millions of years, how do you account for all the other differences in the secular interpretation vs. what the Bible CLEARLY states.
It’s not a ’secular interpretation vs what the bible clearly states’, but rather, your interpretation of a passage vs someone else’s interpretation. Keep in mind that there can be no conflict between Scripture and science, because both come from God. Science is merely the observation of the world around us. Since God created that world, science and Scripture CAN’T conflict. When there is an appearance of conflict, it’s because we misinterpret Scripture, science, or both.
March 7th, 2009 15:57 pm
Denying the existence of “Hell” is denying the coming of Christ. Jesus very existence and gospel including John the Baptist’s call for repentance is concerning the saving of your soul.
Steve I applaud you on your website, it is something that I myself had, and have a desire to do in the future; maybe for selfish reasons, yet testifying of our Lord Jesus Christ is greater than any selfish reason I may have. Alas, here I am, and I hear not only your testimony, but that of many.
I have always been intrigued by Luke:22.16-18 “for I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes”
Could Jesus be the vine, and the apostles be the fruit of the vine. Hence the last supper is a promise to the apostles that they will all be sitting at the table with Jesus once in heaven?
God is referred as the trimmer of the vine, the disciples, followers as the branches. But he who does not produce fruit should be cut-off. Now we know the 12 (Paul is included for the apostles were given to Jesus by the father, and not chosen by men) did produce fruit.
Can you see the correlation or am I just reading too much into it?
April 15th, 2009 08:14 am
“When there is an appearance of conflict, it’s because we misinterpret Scripture, science, or both.”
WTF??? Why don’t you just say, I believe this stupid, never-proved-right, old, stinky book (bible), so everything else is wrong? Not matter now conflicted it is, no matter how right other things are, that doesn’t matter – only this fake, non-existing god matters?
Only one word can describe you: stupid!!!
April 15th, 2009 20:10 pm
SV2,
I appreciate your willingness to even look at the issue, but you’re missing the point. Real science and the truth of Scripture don’t conflict and can’t conflict. My personal view is that the earth is several billions of years old, and that the universe is about 13 billion years old. Do you take issue with that? I don’t buy naturalistic (or even theistic) evolution because I don’t see the evidence for it. I do believe that Jesus was God and man in one. Do you take issue with that? Where do you draw the line about what is acceptable belief — or what is acceptable science? Or do you just reject ‘belief’ outright?
stupid, never-proved-right, old, stinky book (bible) and this fake, non-existing god kind of puts your ‘argument’ in context, doesn’t it? If you’re will to discuss things in a calm and rational manner, then I’m all for it. Otherwise, have a nice day. I’ll being praying that the Spirit of God would draw you close to Him.