Aug 30 2007
What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs?
Martin at Sun and Shield has two interesting posts about the fate of dinosaurs. He presents several options for what happened to dinos:
Dinosaurs never existed at all.
This is difficult to believe, because of the fossil evidence.Dinosaurs existed. In which case, they became extinct at some time in the past . . .
If that’s true, why? There are three possibilities.
1) The earth is very old, and mainstream science, which claims that dinosaurs became extinct a long time ago, is correct.
2) Dinosaurs (and presumably many other forms of prehistoric life) were destroyed before the creation events described in the six days of Genesis 1. This would be consistent with gap theory. It is probably consistent with mainstream science, also.
3) Dinosaurs were rescued from Noah’s flood, but have become extinct since, probably because conditions on earth changed*.Or they didn’t [go extinct].
The evidence cited on the web pages proclaiming that they still live is correct, and some dinosaurs still exist. Perhaps the Loch Ness monster exists, and is one.
*Dinosaurs would have taken up a lot of room on the ark, if there were very many species of them, plus the room needed for their food. Genesis 6 says that Noah was to take a male and a female of each animal, and doesn’t mention anything about eggs being brought aboard. If somehow the dinosaurs were represented by eggs, rather than young dinosaurs, where did the eggs come from? As the KJV puts it (Genesis 6:20) the animals were to “come unto thee.” (to Noah)
Hmmm. Dinosaurs are very problematic to a Young Earth interpretation of Genesis, because they don’t fit nicely. Hence, you have get creative and assume they were either on the ark, or that they were simply large lizards and still exist today. After all, the reasoning goes, people - and dinosaurs - lived to great age before the Flood. Reptiles, in theory, will keep growing until they die. So a gecko would inevitably turn (evolve?) into a T. Rex or iguanadon.
It comes back to the issue of credibility. As Scripture points out, non-believers are going to think Christianity is foolish no matter what we say, and I accept that. We don’t have to make the job easier for them. One of Martin’s commenters says,
The kids in the church now sing, “Behemoth” was a dinosaur. [Realize] one day these children will read a real science book are realize the church lied to them, and walk away. Look at the recent statistics published that show a mass exodus of children from the church when they reach college.
I would suggest that, if there is such an exodus, it exists because we shelter kids from ‘real science’ and don’t give them the tools to evaluate the evidence for themselves. Creative Young Earth ‘fables’ that make dinosaurs out of old lizards are more dangerous to our kids that anything Charles Darwin ever came up with. Why not instead give our kids the tools to understand that a Young Earth understanding of the Creation account is going to be colored by a bias against science?
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August 30th, 2007 at 15:57 pm
No, the Loch Ness Monster does not exist.
A simple measure of how much food a beast of that size would need to survive compared to how much the Loch could produce sees to that. Combined with the problem of almost zero genetic diversity would mean that even if it did exist, it would be one of the most inbred creatures ever and thus not exist anyway, since inbreeding tends to dramatically decrease fertility rates.
August 31st, 2007 at 06:13 am
Perhaps the Young Earth interpretation of Genesis is problematic because it doesn’t fit nicely with dinosaurs.
August 31st, 2007 at 07:22 am
I’m a bit confused by your thesis here. You’re stating that science is correct, yet at the same time you write “The evidence cited on the web pages proclaiming that they still live is correct, and some dinosaurs still exist. Perhaps the Loch Ness monster exists, and is one,” which is directly counter to what we understand from science (unless you’re playing the “birds are dinosaurs” card, which would be correct). There is no evidence that non-avian dinosaurs still live today, just about every famous account amounting to a hoax or a case of mistaken identity.
Further, like Matt notes, there’s no reason to believe that the Loch Ness Monster exists, or if there is a large animal in the Loch it’s not a plesiosaur or any other ancient relative. Plesiosaurs, pliosaurs, mosasaurs, pterosaurs, and many other large archosaurs lived during the Mesozoic but were not dinosaurs, so even calling “Nessie” a dinosaur is incorrect.
Anyway, I would be curious to see what this “evidence” is that dinosaurs still live, as most of the references to ancient remnants has long been discredited or provides no compelling evidence (i.e. the New Zealand “Plesiosaur”, Mokele Mbembe, the “Ropen” of the Pacific, etc.).
August 31st, 2007 at 08:30 am
laelaps,
Perhaps I didn’t develop the thought well enough. Please see both of Martin’s posts referenced above for context, particularly with regard to the comment about dinos still living today.
His contention was that there are several options proposed by various groups to account for dinosaurs: 1) they never existed; 2) they did exist but are now extinct; and 3) they did exist in the past and still exist, hidden away in caves or deep waters. I’d add an option that is somewhat popular, 4) they evolved into birds and such.
There are not many who would accept the first option, and only slightly more who accept the third.
Part of the reason for my post, and probably Martin’s as well, is to show the lengths some in the Young Earth Creationist community will go to try to force science to align with their interpretation of the Genesis account.
August 31st, 2007 at 08:40 am
Thank you for the clarification Steve. That was the general impression that I had gotten, but the post was so short that the thought didn’t seem entirely developed so I wasn’t entirely sure. I agree that YEC’s often disregard the teaching of their own holy book and add to the Bible (i.e. sticking dinosaurs in here and there) when such Scripture-twisting is counter to their pious attitude. Still, the argument would probably come off better if the thoughts were expanded upon just a bit more as the brevity can lead to misunderstanding (like I exemplified).
September 3rd, 2007 at 00:49 am
Hello, Steve. I’ve just discover your site. You’re so right when you said that dinosaurs pose huge problems for creationists who believe in the fabled young earth. And it just so happens that I have here 2 sites I got which deals with how creationists handle dinosaurs. You can visit my site whenever you like and put them on your blogroll.
One is called Dinosaurs and the Bible: A Creationist’s Fantasy and the other is Dinosaurs: A Creationists Fairy Tale
Both sites all deal with how creationists deal with dinosaurs and you and your bloggers are more than welcome to
visit my site whenever you like!
September 3rd, 2007 at 09:00 am
Crazy,
Thanks, but no thanks. One of the things that bothers me about the YEC/OEC/evolutionism ‘debate’ is that it’s not a debate. There’s little or no dialog, but instead, lots of dogmatic “believe my way or go to hell” shouting, and your sites perpetuate that tone. The YEC is not my enemy and neither is the evolutionist. Let’s leave that role to Satan, the father of lies.
September 3rd, 2007 at 15:53 pm
Very thought provoking. I’ll take that into consideration. Especially since I, too had those times when I don’t want to deal with them anymore. But I was forced into this years ago in the summer of 1992 when Mom started to falsely accuse me of rejecting the truth and the Bible and challenge me to rethinking my views on dinosaurs when I tried to tell her that what the young earth books, which a neighbor let me look at, promote about dinosaurs is wrong (She never understood what the young earth dogma is really all about at that time.).
Before the ordeal came up, I knew all along that what creationists promote about dinosaurs is wrong and false. A few years before the ordeal, listened a Christian radio program about dinosaurs on the radio in which they declared falsely that dinosaurs lived thousands of years ago. When I heard it, I knew in an instant that this was all a lie and just simply brushed it off. It was just after the ordeal with mom when I began to get more emotionally sensitive, angry, and bitter towards the young earth dogma. Next thing I knew, I find myself struggling with this young earth dogma, accumulating all these negative emotions I have against it and carrying this burden over a long period of time.
To make the long story short, after years of struggling through it, I became fed up with it and begin posting my reactions and responses to the young earth claims to websites, forums, and finally to what I’m working on today. I just had to vent it all out on my blogs, including the ones I kept bottled up inside me for many years. Blogging has been a huge, huge help for me. So much to help me come to terms with what I’ve been through for the past 15 years that I’m going to continue to blog about this as long as there is a need to and until all of it is straight out of my system for good.
The way they been forcefully shoving lies down the throats everyday by all means, I just had to get the word out about how bad their dogma is, including their dealings with dinosaurs, and how we can be better off without them. That’s why the 2 sites are there. My anger and bitter reactions to their imposing is what got me into perpetuating the tone you don’t approve of. I’m sorry you feel that way about my sites. So am I, but that’s how I react to the YECs’ inflammatory remarks about those who oppose their views.
September 3rd, 2007 at 17:56 pm
Crazy,
I can understand that. I come at it from a Christian perspective and try - not always successfully - to filter my words through Scripture. I certainly have my opinions about the ’science’ of Young Earth creationism, but I’ll let others do the ranting.
The Scriptural creation accounts leave a lot of room for interpretation, so let’s have a reasonable, rational discussion about it. Unfortunately, all too often, emotions overtake reason.
September 3rd, 2007 at 19:00 pm
You’re absolutely right, Steve. Every time I tried to tell others about how wrong young earth creationism is, my emotions kick in and ruin everything I tried to say and do. So I need to try to stay calm and try to sift through this thing one little bit at a time.
September 3rd, 2007 at 23:18 pm
Crazy,
Do you think YECs are willfully deceiving people?
September 4th, 2007 at 20:29 pm
I have a very good and very bright friend, a software engineer, who also happens to be a YEC. It sometimes boggles my mind but he puts it this way; Sure the evidence suggests an old earth. But if God is God, then we could easily be presented with a young earth that looks old. Afterall, Adam and Eve were presented as fully grown adults, not infants. God could certainly have created a fully mature earth, with all the wrinkles and gray hairs in place. To insist that God could not or would not do this tends to trivialize God’s capabilities.
I don’t buy his argument, but I can’t refute it either. Who’s to say? As stated before, the problems arise when we try to force our point of view on others (which he never does).
September 5th, 2007 at 07:21 am
Yeah, I probably overstated the case a bit, because I also have good friends who happen to be YECs. We can have rational conversations about the issue and agree to disagree. On the other hand, I know many who are much more vocal about it and for whom there can be no ‘discussion’ on the matter.
September 5th, 2007 at 15:22 pm
Why discount option #1 so readily? How do we know whether the fossil record is real, or just part of the universal illusion of Apparent Age?
September 5th, 2007 at 15:38 pm
Not sure if you’re serious here, but I’ll give it a go - or at least answer a question with a question: why would God be deceptive and create the universe with the appearance of age? He obviously could, but I don’t think that fits with His nature.
If the universe looks old, maybe it is old; if the fossil record shows dinosaurs, maybe they really existed.
September 5th, 2007 at 17:58 pm
Yeah, I think that is the flaw in my friend’s theory as well. God could certainly have done that but it would have been iluusory (I had not heard the term “Apparent Age” before). What would be his purpose here? But who are we to be able to understand his purpose?
It still seems unnecessarily tricky.
October 10th, 2007 at 16:58 pm
[...] the church thought dinosaurs were a hoax (Unfortunately, some probably think so. See here.) [...]
October 19th, 2007 at 22:44 pm
What is the most dangerous dinosaur living today?
October 20th, 2007 at 11:13 am
The hippie.
This post (and the blog) are now closed. Careful Thought is now hosted at http://www.carefulthought.com.